Interview

INTERVIEWER:

Okay, let's take it back to the beginning. So who, talk me through who the founding members were of original. Yeah.

TRACY:

Okay. So it was David McCormick, me, Elena and SIAN: and Nicolo and the four of us, David, SIAN:, Elena, myself, we all were at Case Western and David knew Nicolo from, do you remember where E b I for? Yeah, from the A Summer festival. Summer festival. And David had just gotten a new Vielle and really wanted to have some friends do a concert with it. Like his first V. Yeah. And so he brought the, the five of us together and we did a concert and it was really well received. It's surprisingly fun. And then we were like, we should do another concert

INTERVIEWER:

Now. You

SIAN:

Guys

INTERVIEWER:

Sort of degree programs at that point.

SIAN:

Yeah. So David had graduated 'cause he did not stay and do a doctorate. He ran away after the master's.

INTERVIEWER:

All in Cleveland at this point.

SIAN:

Yeah. So yeah, Elena and Tracy and I were in Cleveland. David had moved back to Charlottesville and Nikola was in school at Peabody because they were 19 when this started.

INTERVIEWER:

We were doing the math before the photo shoot and we were like, wait, how old are they? And we went back and we were like, baby.

SIAN:

Yeah, I know. The most precocious baby has always been the most precocious baby. Yeah. And also it's, you know, it's affected their, like, the way they've grown up because they've always been around colleagues that are so much older than they are. 'cause they're a precocious baby now an adult. I mean, but at the time, a baby

TRACY:

You guys were like a solid, what, 10 years-ish ahead?

SIAN:

Yeah, it was. Some of it's like Elena and I are about seven years ahead. Six and seven years. Yeah. And David and Tracy are about 13 and 14 years ahead.

INTERVIEWER:

Well, and at that stage though, like the difference between a 19 and a 25 year old

SIAN:

Or 19 and a 35 year

INTERVIEWER:

Old, that's pretty, that's really pretty big. I mean, good for them. I mean, yeah. But so you were at school together, three of, you're in Cleveland and David evacuated and, and did his, did, did his instrument have like a name? Do you remember? I

SIAN:

Don't think he No named it. It didn't, it was just the vielle. It's very aesthetically beautiful. Yeah. Like he definitely bought, I mean Oh, you didn't see it because we were like, David, you don't need to bring it. But it's very, very, it's, it's, it's much prettier than Ola vielle and it's got these old checker boards on. Yeah, it's got like decoration.

INTERVIEWER:

But I'll just unpack that with David separately. I don't know. Yeah. Oh, he just needs pretty, pretty things He does had the concert was in Cleveland, the first one. He

SIAN:

Was in Virginia actually.

INTERVIEWER:

How did that come about? Who was, did you self present the first program We

TRACY:

Did and David, you know, in the, in the beginning I would say David was really a big initiator of, of, of making, he was the one who made the concert happen and that was the one who kind of organized it and found the venue and all of that. And we all liked medieval music. Right. I think SIAN: was kind of the, the first like you were like the vanguard of like really wanting to champion it. I don't know. I don't know if that's true. I had, for me, that time when we got together, I remember when we were just like sitting on the floor and jamming on Echo Up Primavera, like, that was like the most fun I had ever had as a musician. And so I like wanted to have that feeling again, you know? Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

So were you all at Case Western, were you all doing early music? Like was this a departure, like going so medieval,

SIAN:

No. Peace Western at the time is one of, was, they've had some changes in leadership that have affected this, but was like deeply supportive of the medieval period. And so it wa it wasn't at departure. Like we had a teacher, Deborah, Nick and Julian Dsky, who both do a lot in the medieval period and were doing that repertoire with us. Although our first concert, yeah, I had only really what year? Sorry, David, I think about more than you. Yeah, you and because there's a Collegium ensemble that like, it's basically things earlier than the Baroque period. So it's like 16th century and earlier. But when I started there, I hadn't done that much. We'd had a couple like later periods, but, but yeah, definitely. And, and the teacher of the Collegium was like, was my oboe teacher, my baroque oboe teacher. And she is a really serious medieval musician and really loves it. And she really, I think wanted to cultivate that. Yeah. Yeah. But I remember our first concert mostly had music that we, that one of us hadn't done. Right. So it wasn't like, right. So no, I wouldn't say it was, you know, in many, I would say early music programs in the States, there are more people doing like later music than earlier music. But it wasn't, we weren't like renegades yet.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah. I'm sort of curious about, 'cause like what we at U N T, I feel like our Collegium was very Yeah, like baroque ish center and they were like little, it was like, oh, and then the people who were really serious to that, like they went off to the side and went like real medieval. But it was rare. So it's interesting. So there was like a culture of support there.

SIAN:

Totally.

INTERVIEWER:

And were you all on like performance? Was everyone in master's programs, doctoral programs?

SIAN:

Yeah, we were the three of the three ladies. We were in a doctoral program and historical performance. And Nikola was in a master's program. And I think like with the focus on Viola Gamba actually, do you think look at a master's? I thought they just undergrad. Oh, undergrad, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And David had many master's degrees but had just gotten a, his second master's in historical performance.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, I know that type. Okay. So, and remind me, what year was this?

SIAN:

The first one? The spring of 2013 was our first sponsor, first concert.

INTERVIEWER:

Beautiful. Okay. And, and so at this point, David is kind of in a leadership, like he's the moving and shaking to make these programs happen. But did it feel pretty diplomatic, like artistically at this point? Was it like a in

SIAN:

The beginning? Absolutely. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

Okay. So like the culture was sort of established as being real cooperative.

SIAN:

And I think that was, that came in apart from us all being in school together. And so we'd always been in groups where we were making chamber music and trying to figure it out. And so we already had a culture of, I mean, I think we've gotten better at it of like telling each other exactly what we thought. And I think we've gotten better at being constructive in our, in, in the way we work together. And then the appreciation of the different colors and mechanisms and sounds that we're able to bring.

INTERVIEWER:

And when you can say, say that you're more constructive now, what would you say that you were before?

SIAN:

Because it could be,

INTERVIEWER:

Or like,

SIAN:

Yeah, I think, I think we j you know, there's always ways of crafting messages that that sink down into the dirt. You know, it's like sometimes if you, okay analogy time, like if you pour water really fast on dry earth, it just all kind of sls off or like goes into the holes. It's just like, it's a little much. And I feel like we've gotten better at figuring out how to water the plant effectively. So it's like, you know, we, I would just remember like, I think we all wanted, we all wanted to have input and sometimes we didn't know how to talk to each other and not take that defensively or not do it aggressively, you know, or to understand that like, you know, if you want, if you ideally want your colleague to do five things differently, maybe they can't actually effectively take in all five things at the same time At the same time. And that like, and maybe they've got other things they're thinking about. Yeah. Also true. Other priorities that you haven't even considered. Casey, you should know that it's sloughs off What? Sloughs off slough instead of sls, not slack. Really? Did I just say that? Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. You should know Snuffs. Yeah. Like rough. Like rough

INTERVIEWER:

It. It's sluffing and you should know this because you are culturally connected in our world with exfoliation. So it's really, it's true.

SIAN:

I should know this. It's a really important word for you. For me it's sl. No,

INTERVIEWER:

I just last year realized that in my head like indictment, like I knew what indictment meant. Yeah. But in my head I always read it as indictment.

SIAN:

Me too.

INTERVIEWER:

And so I just thought that they were two words that meant the exact same thing.

SIAN:

Classic. Classic.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah. Yeah. Until one day, like a year ago I said indictment and the entire room was like, Beth, what the fuck?

SIAN:

Oh, I see you Beth. Totally ate and indictment. Yeah, it's the same. It's the same thing. Yeah. One's, one's red one's.

INTERVIEWER:

Yes. Thank, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, totally. They have different colors. Thank you. Yeah,

SIAN:

I mean I'm, I'm deeply into n u I is like theragy like cousins. It's, it's one of the four horsemen of, of depression. Exactly. On we is like, that's just like flirting with like boredom anyways. Like anyways, like this, I'm in it.

INTERVIEWER:

Yes.

SIAN:

I'm a grumpy night and I'm here to bring you, you don't wanna do anything. Sadness. Yeah. It's interesting thinking about, I remember in the beginning we all, it's, it's one of these chicken and egg things, right? Yeah. Where I think we all, even though we'd had worked together, we were all in kind of different places in our musical journeys. Yeah. Personally and that, well I, 'cause I just feel like we had totally different things that we were thinking about as our personal priorities in the beginning. And that made it, I think that's part of why we had such intense discussion is that we didn't all agree on like our core values weren't entirely aligned in the beginning because we were all like focusing on different personal goals. And I feel like we are much more aligned now individually. I think we've come, I think through that process we've come, I think we still have our deep personal goals, but I think now like together we have similar like musical goals and those only got kind of defined and refined as we spent the past 10 years together.

INTERVIEWER:

I mean, I feel like often in sort of the historical performance practice universe, as opposed to being a someone who's like, okay, I've been studying piano since I was three and I have this like narrow straight path. Like often there's situations where you're like going into a doctoral program and you're like, I'm really passionate about this instrument that I picked up a year and a half ago.

SIAN:

Yeah, exactly. But you're in a really different ability level. Yes. And so figuring out like what to prioritize when you're like, no, I wanna be better at everything. But in this moment it's like we've had different levels of like different people thinking about technique as a focus, different people thinking about virtuosity as a focus, like different people being obsessed with intonation and, but having totally different ways of how to fix it or how that might, how that might be like worked out. Yeah. Well,

INTERVIEWER:

During the lifespan of your organization, we've also had this massive cultural shift away from the expert of one being the focus, right? That like, you have to be like the narrow path is the way to realizing that the broader the skillsets actually the better the product and definitely the more interesting and original the product. And I feel like depending on where people came from sort of at an undergraduate level, like that sort of, that like sits with you. Do you know what I mean? Like there's, you have to fight against that. Like that lecture that's been given that like, you need to on one thing. And I, I remember like we've thought about, I I remember thinking about that actually really clearly the very beginning of teeth because I was like looking at this group and like I knew some of the singers and then I was like, but like how y'all are like violinists, like what the fuck is happening here? Yeah. And, and then it's like, oh, oh, oh, we're okay. The world is changing. But I like, I can just see how like the life cycle of each of you could be in, in extremely, extremely different places based on all of those things. Totally.

SIAN:

And I would, I would say like even between me and Tracy, I feel like this gap is narrowing because we have done so many of the same things for the last decade. But like tra like I had an undergrad and a master's degree at Conservatories. Like I'm a conservatory trained musician that like, I've just been practicing and been in that world my whole life. And like Tracy had like was a much more, you didn't have that background. No. And so we had totally different kind of starting points for expectations. Right. Or like what kind of things were non-negotiable and we didn't necessarily understand like, why are you prioritizing this thing when you're not prioritizing this thing? And I think we both felt that way about different topics. Yep.

INTERVIEWER:

But do you feel like that diversity of experience, like across the whole group, ended up serving the ensemble

SIAN:

1000%? Yeah. I mean it's the kind of thing where it was always, we talked about it because it was like to come up with something that convinced the five of us. We were always like, you know, if we can convince the five of ourselves that we have is a good idea, then we kind of, we gotta the point where we also didn't care about what the rest of the world thought so much. I mean, you know, you wanna have an audience, you wanna share your thing, but it wasn't like, I think we got to a point of less needing other people to like us. 'cause we're like, we've convinced ourselves that was such a big lift. Like, the rest of you can enjoy this or not. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

Talk right off.

SIAN:

That was always really powerful. But also it became like, you know, we, we tend to have kind of a starting point when we come to a piece. There's not always but often like one person with kind of a vision about what's, what they kind of see as a, as a starting place. And then where we end up is always wildly different or at least different. It's always different. And we've all accept and I think we all, I I could speak for us. Yeah. I, I think that we all agree that the end point is better than what that individual person was imagining in a way that is so like beautiful to see. And also it takes kind of a lot of trust and like, you have to be willing to put aside your own ego of like, oh, I did think really hard about this piece and I had, and I thought I would be playing this instrument and this is what I practice.

SIAN:

But actually the suggestion you just made to play a totally different instrument with different fingerings, I agree. It will sound way better. Yeah. And, and so there's like kind of a willingness to do that, that we all share and have cultivated. And I think it also, it's part of why we feel like, you know, it's a great combo because we feel everyone feels both invested and a part of the artistic product, but also there's a little bit of personal distance and so far as you're not like, this is just me and my vision, please God like it or whatever. It's more like, this is what I came up with with a group of people who I love and trust. So it's like I feel like people both are proud of it and can like champion it, but don't feel quite as like, like, you know, emotionally. And I, I, there's, there's, there's a nice detachment as and and sometimes when there's detachment it means people aren't invested. But I feel like it's like this really happy middle ground.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, are invested in the flexible nature of your dynamic. Yeah. Like you can be invested in that product broadly without being invested in like a very specific artistic product. Right.

SIAN:

It's like, it's like part of a bigger thing that you feel a part of as opposed to like just yourself, you know? And I feel like that's kind of how we program and think about like, we're interested in having as much variety as possible and also featuring everybody as a soloist and everybody is like all the small combinations, like, so that everyone gets the chance to lead some things musically, but that it's not just like one person is doing that all the time and the success of the ensemble is all on them. Right. Like I think we really like that flexibility of roles too.

INTERVIEWER:

So it's almost like the democracy of your organization is also recognizable by the audience artistically.

SIAN:

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

So this first program that you did, I assume it was like, was there, was there a theme to it other than like, let's show off the pretty, pretty, pretty,

SIAN:

Not totally. It was the, it was that, it was totally like, let's do 14th to 15th century repertoire that we really like that we really like that, that we already know and really like at least somebody has done it before. Right.

INTERVIEWER:

Our favorite.

SIAN:

Yeah. I mean it was very much like we were just beginning medieval musicians and we were like, let's put on a show together, you know, cute family

INTERVIEWER:

Smile. So after the first performance, like, did you think that this was gonna be a one-off or?

SIAN:

I think during, while we were there, we were, by the end we were like, oh, this is awesome. Yeah. Like, let's try to do another concert. And then it made sense that we're like, let's do it. You know, January is always such a good time for students, like early January and Nicola's like, yeah, there's some venues that we can perform in in Baltimore that like, they'll give us a small fee and, and we were like, yeah, let's, let's hold these dates in January. That sounds like a fun activity. And then unfortunately Tracy right. Was not able to join us, but it was this thing of we're like, but what repertoire are we gonna do? We don't know what's going on. So it ended up being kind of like workshopping the music for Elena's like lecture recital that she was working on, which involved like a lot of like performing things for manuscript that had never been performed before.

SIAN:

And it was just the scrappiest, I'm like, Tracy, I don't know. Your brain might have exploded if you've been there, but it was literally like when we showed up, we didn't have additions of things. We didn't know. Elena was like, translate trying to translate this old French in the middle of the night and like contacting scholars and like, we literally like rhythm, like the night of the, the, the dress rehearsal on the day of the first concert, Elena was like, I've come up with a tune to this piece and I'm gonna teach it to you right now.

SIAN:

But it was, it felt very, like, it was very exciting though. It felt crazy, but it was very fun. And that was kind of the first, because this show, the first show we did was very much like kind of, here, let's use the tools we already have. This was like, oh, we're gonna figure out how to have new tools. And it was the first time I'd done repertoire kind of, of that. It was my first poly textual marette experience. And it, I think that it was, it was really exciting. We obviously missed Tracy Deeply Sad times. I had a, and I couldn't say. Yeah. Yeah. It was no fun. But, but yeah, so we, so we did that one show the next year and then, then at that point, what happened next? I think I feel like I need to pull up Mar like, oh my god, our, our concert history.

SIAN:

But basically what happened, we, we got together, we did one more show. 'cause Nicolo really was excited about this particular manuscript. And, and so they kind of programmed the show the next year. And what happened is that from this self programming, there were two presenters who were like, oh, we wanna hire you for our concert series the next year. So that's kind of how things started. We kind of started as a touring ensemble. So we were a touring ensemble, like, because we're like, oh we then we have reasons to get together because these people will pay us some money to do it. Right. Valid. And it was kind of like a way to like keep hanging out with your friends too after you graduate. You know, like, and also by that point, for me, certainly after the second concert, I was like just such an excited person about medieval music and in our field you are not, that's not, there are very few medieval gigs unless you're making them yourself. And we wanted to give ourselves the opportunity to keep making this music.

INTERVIEWER:

So at this point, where is everyone geographically? After concert two?

SIAN:

After concert two, everyone is still in the same locations. Were ladies in, still in Cleveland, Nicolo still in Maryland. David in Charlottesville. I don't think I, I think I was in Boston by this time. 2014, 2015 or New York. Yeah. But after, after the second concert. After the second concert, yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

True. There was a third concert and then we started to Yeah.

SIAN:

Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

And, and so you're getting kind of organically, like people are hearing your concerts, presenters are getting wind. They're like, you should be on my series.

SIAN:

But still very slow. I mean, it was like, I'm looking at like 2015, 16, we were on, we were on a series in DC and we were on the Gotham Merley music series in New York City, which I feel like doesn't really count. And we were on a series in, in Straussberg, Pennsylvania, but it's by, so in 2015 the big thing that happened is that everybody graduated. Yeah. And so Tracy had been living in Boston the previous year with the shitty man that we all know about. And I was like, get the fuck outta there. I need you to move to New York with me. We need to move to New York. I know you've moved four times. The last four years. I don't give a shit. I, we live. So we moved to New York and so did Elena actually for one year. Yeah. And Nikola graduated also and moved to LA for the next two years. 'cause that's where his now husband was. And David was still in Virginia. Just still, just still David. Just Virginia for Virginia, Virginia's for David. So did we guys together, sorry,

INTERVIEWER:

Did you two live together?

TRACY:

We did when we moved to Brooklyn in 2015. Yeah. We searched for, with Jim's little sister. We searched for an apartment like, like it was our job. And we found a great place. And that's why I still am SIAN: left to go live with Jim for a year. Yeah. And then they moved back when they were coming back to like New York after the Newark job died, who's like, we need to live within 10 minutes of Tracy Cower. And I was like, yes, you do. So now they live 10 minutes away. So I would say this like moving to New York period was this period of like, we're on some series, we're trying to figure out how to, what makes sense and like what opportunities make sense. I really had it in my mind that like if we had a residency somewhere, like with a space that, that would really like solidify things, unlock things for us.

SIAN:

And we tried to make that happen at the church where Jim and I lived in Newark and it kind of didn't, yeah, it was pretty annoying. But we did have a place to rehearse. I mean, we lived in a church, so there are some benefits to that obviously. But Yeah. And like I had done a, a, a project at Bem, a fringe concert of the music, of my lecture recital. And somebody, the one time this has ever happened, it's like somebody was there who was like, oh, I run a concert series via my concert series. And I was like, well that group isn't really a thing, but my group alchemy could do this. And we had a colleague, another musicologist who was teaching in West Virginia and he's like, I've got some money. Like what if you guys came and did a residency in the fall and the spring and like taught our students. So we were just like scrambling around for things. Yeah. A couple years. For a couple years.

INTERVIEWER:

Well it really seems like once you hit like 2015, you were really solidly doing like five or six gigs a year.

SIAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

And it seems pretty diverse, like a combination. I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but Well actually yeah, did it like mostly presented by other people and bringing in residencies, but did you maybe self present like one thing a year? Is that kind of

SIAN:

Yeah. Yep. Totally.

INTERVIEWER:

And when did you guys get 5 0 1 C grade?

SIAN:

So we did that in February, 2018 and I think it was like maybe the fall of 2017. Is that correct? That we, I just remember us all being at, at a gig together and we like sat around, sat around a kitchen table and we like all held hands. I feel like it was at this Cyprus concert, wasn't it? Because this would've been I think so, yeah. At at George's table table this like old man who would always house us who referred to us as his feral cats. But yeah, we all sat around George's table and held hands and were like, let's try to do this. Right. We were like, let's have this commitment ceremony. We're like, do we wanna have an organization together guys? And everyone was like, yes we do. And only Tracy truly understood what that means to David. Yeah. It was part of why, like, I, I was, I yeah, we didn't do it.

SIAN:

I mean, 2018 having been formed in 2013 is kind of a long time to wait to get nonprofit status was, you know, ish. It was like, it's, it's a lot of work once you get started. And also knowing where we didn't have a clear sense of where we would be based. And by that time it started becoming clear that we'd be based in new, that New York had the most opportunities for us in terms of getting our shit together. Right. 'cause we were like, should we be in Virginia? But David already had three Knot Road in Virginia should be, and they're kind of limited in terms of funding that's available on the state and city level. And it became really clear, well, because Jim is the spirit of New York. Right. And I'm committed to Jim and Tracy is committed to me. Is committed to Tracy, which is why we're all in New York. Yeah. Forever. Jim is the, is the roots. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

The spirit of New York.

SIAN:

He's, he just, he loves it. It's like the feeling that we get when we like come to Vermont and we're like, look at the Rolling Hills. It's so beautiful. He gets that feeling in New York City where he's like, this is it. This is where I'm meant to be. He doesn't have any, like, Vermont has no impact upon him emotionally. He's just like, I don't know, it's fine. I'm like, what he, and he's just like, yeah. He, he, he and he loves it spiritually and has intellectually I'm like, oh, Jim

INTERVIEWER:

Moved by the muck. Okay. Yeah.

SIAN:

Yep, yep.

INTERVIEWER:

So, and I don't wanna like derail anything, but I'm, so we're getting to like 2018 19, 19 20. Are we still like purely in medieval mode or have there been any excursions?

SIAN:

So one reason that we, like when we chose our name, our, our incorporation name, we chose Chemy Early Music Ensemble Incorporated. 'cause we were like, we wanna leave things flexible. Maybe we thought we might be more like tenant. Right. We didn't know. Right. We didn't know. And we definitely did like one program. We did that first program for that, that Pennsylvania presenter who saw us at them. And it was just a medieval program. And then he had us come back the next year and, and we included, we made kind of like a Marian program throughout the centuries where we did do some 17th century repertoire for singers and, and gamba. And that didn't seem crazy to us at the time. Right. But, but pretty focused on the medieval period. And as time went on, it became clear, I think actually after that Marion program we were like, it was kind of weird.

SIAN:

It seemed weird to us to be stretching across. So we kinda didn't, I mean we, the thing is we kind of don't have the right people to do it with just the five of us at the time. That's the, oh, that's the other thing is that at that point, because in the Renaissance, like to me, one of the biggest hallmarks of the shift between the medieval and the Renaissance period is the shift to S A T B writing because that was not a thing in the medieval period. And it happens even like in Duffy's lifetime. It happens. And so for us, especially at that point, we didn't really have instruments that went below the sea, below Middle Sea. Like we couldn't do. And we certainly don't have a concert of instruments and we don't, and we don't have a concert of do that and we don't have the right broken of instruments.

SIAN:

Right. And, and now actually hilariously, as we become more focused, actually we can do things of the Renaissance more easily because we have instruments that go lower now and we have Ben and the Dolson, but still we don't really, but still we don't focus on that. Right. Right. Because it's just like we we're not set up to, to really make that happen in a way that makes that much sense. Right. And for the broker air too. Like we don't have, we don't have a harps cords or like a, a few vrbo, you know, plucked. And so it was just like, we were like, right. Like we could, we all are very comfortable in these other periods, but we don't think that this is what this ensembles people is set up to do. So

INTERVIEWER:

Do you think that the Freelance Nun situation that that was born out of wanting to expand but realizing you couldn't expand like into the Baroque and you wanted to stretch your legs a little bit, but like you didn't have the right, do you know what I mean? Like was that

SIAN:

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Like, yes. Yeah. And we wanted to stretch our legs into like American folk and into collaborations with pop composers and, and making new music for modern oboe. Accordion and electric carp. Right. I, it's like, no, we have other, other musical dreams that really don't fit in a box that is medieval.

INTERVIEWER:

So talk to me about when Freelance Nun started to simmer. Like when did you start thinking about it? I assume it was the two of you.

SIAN:

Yeah, so I would say that the seeds of it started with Alkemie and Friends, which was, so right before, right before the pandemic when we were just starting to, it was before we'd first applied for like state funding. I was like, we need to be doing more in New York because in order to get funding from the city and state, which is gonna be what's gonna really help us like go to the next level. Right. And we were struggling with, we were struggling with two things. One, this was before SIAN: and I kind of abdicated a potential. Like I Yeah, I can, I have a brief administration. Yeah. So I bark 'cause I feel like it's connected to that. Yeah. Is that, in the beginning we started as a musical and administrative democracy, like anarchy and, and we had everybody kind of doing everything. And then once we moved to New York and we started to have more things happening, there was a point when I was like, does anybody know what's going on?

SIAN:

Like, has anybody been in touch with this presenter? Like, do we have a deadline for like when program materials are gonna happen? When what's gonna happen? And basically everyone was like, I don't know. I was like, I will figure out what's happening and I will alert you. Which is our first, that was my first administrative function and it was hard. There was definitely a shift for me. So Tracy was working on other shit and also was pretty sick. And so, but Tracy got to the end of that and then Right. Was like, like ghost administering then we were like behind me. Right. Coadminister and I was a secret secretly administrator. Yeah, exactly. And so there came to a point where by the time of right before Covid, where it became clear that we were really coad administrators and Tracy was trying to lead me in the direction of like, I mean I feel like you were very kindly like teaching me like what it is to actually administrate an ensemble because I did not know student is now the master.

SIAN:

So it's like we were kind of heading in that direction, but, but hadn't formally, we formally like came out as co-managing directors during Covid. We're like, why are we pretending? We were literally like sending emails from each other's email pretending to be each other. 'cause we were like, people will be confused. No one is a co manager. Right. And also when we, when we made that title, I think that that also prompted, like both of us were really thinking about, actually we need to lead the ensemble Right. With a vision for the future. Right. And someone should be doing that. And it's clearly, it's clear that no one else is good at it or willing to do it. Yeah. So that led us to the point where like, we need to do, Tracy was like, we need to do more concerts. I was like, okay.

SIAN:

I was like, we need to do more concerts because we need to get more money 'cause we need to pay ourselves. And so, and briefly we were like, well, a way that we could do more concerts in New York is if we hired our friends and colleagues here. And this, this didn't work. But our, the idea was that we would hire friends and colleagues in New York to do less formal concerts. It would be easier to put together. And so the fees would be less too. It'd be like, we just need this favor for like maybe two years. And after our first concert, one, it became clear that our other, that our ensemble members were feeling left out because they were like, we, we will travel to New York for lower fees. Just we wanna be involved. So that was a problem. And then the other problem was, well basically realized that we're really bad at having casual concerts and that every concert actually wanna pay people fairly.

SIAN:

And we want them to be well considered thoughtful, interesting programs. And we were like, right, this and this Alchemy and Friends thing, basically we're like, we're gonna, we're still gonna have out of town fees and our colleagues are feeling left out and we just need to do more in New York in a way that that satisfies these two little pitfalls. But at the same time, SIAN: and I were able to articulate internally like, yes, we want to be doing other things that we realized from these collaborations. And we want to do things that don't necessarily involve these for the people that we deeply love and care about and respect and want to work with in many ways. But, but not in every single aspect of our lives. 'cause they can't do everything like, you know. Right. We wanted, we wanted a polyamorous artistic relationship, which everyone else was already involved, which was part of Tracy only monogamous ones.

SIAN:

Right. We were the only monogamous ones. Right. And that was part of it too is that it's like, well everybody, David left t n R but then started an A map and Elena formed another medieval ensemble in Cleveland with Tracy's roommate without telling us about it first. And Nick Low, like recorded several solo albums and was like really pursuing a solo act. And so both of us were like, we're working so hard, we, we should be able to do like, we need a fun time. We, we deserve to have a fun time project. And it was clear that we couldn't bring somebody home. Right. Like, like when we tried to bring some friends back to our alchemy house that, that people were like, no, no, no, you can, you can sleep outside and we may have issues with that, but, but you should not be bringing people back to the home that we live in.

SIAN:

We were like, okay, fine. We've just been painting this home. You know, and like doing all the home renovations. But, so there was a time of resentment I would say. But I think mostly Teresa's not entirely left the time of resentment. Well I know, but you're much farther along. I would say. I'm just sitting the facts on the ground. The time of resentment is, I'm kinda like, but guys, if we could have had everyone be in this home, we could really get some shit done. But, you know, but the home really wasn't big enough for all the things. So it's fine. No

INTERVIEWER:

Role did like your dudes play in this 'cause like your, your loves are part of Freelance Nun. Did you want to like, make art with your people?

SIAN:

We wanted to make art with our people. Yeah. I mean

INTERVIEWER:

People but with your

SIAN:

Safety. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's part of it. And like, you know, it's like the Charles, Ellie, me, Jim, Tracy and Spiff. Were like, we're a triple couple. Like we're a power triple couple. Yes. We're like, everybody has such different, everybody is so talented and like, but we all work so well together and we like to hang out together. We like our tradition is that we'd go on a triple couple Valentine's Day date with the six of us. You know,

INTERVIEWER:

Gross.

SIAN:

I know. So gross. I know, I know, I know. But it's, it's, yeah, we wanted, and that's part of his Freelance on, I mean, it, it was a covid it, I feel like if Covid hadn't happened, it might've taken us longer to get to that point. Yeah. But we were also, we were all in a pod together. And like, and people,

INTERVIEWER:

Six of you or the four of you?

SIAN:

The four of us. But Ellie and Charles were kind of their own thing. And so with testing and great discussion, we were okay with joining together. And like socially, we picked Nick together in the park every week with the six of us when people were around. And so it's like, and meanwhile people literally couldn't come to New York because of the quarantine rules that were happening or people were really worried. It just, it just was not possible. And so that, that also, you know, COVID gave us the space to explore Right. These other things in a way that really we were like, oh, we actually love this. And so then under Alchemy, so sorry Beth, we had like a few concerts that actually like in hindsight were like, they weren't Alchemy and friends, they really were Freelance Nun. But we hadn't quite identified what Freelance Nun was. And the only, it was like we had a board member who was like, I will pay you to make music, but it has to be a donation. And we were like, great, well we have a vehicle for that. That's alchemy. And that was our first concert with Charles and Ellie and Jim and Spiff. It was as an alchemy concert and everyone was okay with it. 'cause no one could come to New York. But now people can come to New York. 'cause we're like, well how do we, now how do we keep this other thing going?

INTERVIEWER:

So I have this theory about people who went pop during the pandemic because there's, I mean, and I, I say that really broadly,

SIAN:

But mostly

INTERVIEWER:

People who took like, their somewhat uniform path and then were like, fuck that. And part of it is, well, let me just ask both of you this. So what did you want to be when you were like 15, 16 years old? What was your fantasy like?

SIAN:

I am so bad. I was so bad at imagining things I didn't know, but I knew that I loved making music and I couldn't imagine a life that I wasn't a musician, but I actually didn't have any clear vision of what that would look like or what I wanted it to look like. What did

INTERVIEWER:

You, what music did you make for yourself at that age? I

SIAN:

Mean, I was like at that point because I've, insane was like a very serious pianist, oboist and singer. And I was practicing all those things every day. And I was like in all of those ensembles, classical

INTERVIEWER:

At that point,

SIAN:

Classical. But I would say that I was currently, like I grew up listening to only classical radio with my parents and going to concerts. 'cause my grandfather played in the Minnesota Orchestra. So like, but what I as an effort to try to understand the alien creatures of the other teenagers when I was like 14. I had, I just, I only listened to pop music in an effort to be like, I need to understand these references of my peers. I feel like such an alien. I can't connect with anybody. So I only listened to pop music actually. Interesting. For years. And I would say that is still kind of true. I don't listen to like top 40 pop anymore. But the music that I, it was definitely this, this thing where the music that resonated the most deeply with me emotionally was not the music that I was making personally.

INTERVIEWER:

That is

SIAN:

Until I started making medieval music. That's so beautiful. And that's why, that's why I was like such a staunch, like, we gotta make this happen. Yeah. Because to me, like Tracy and I, yeah, Tracy listens to music and is like, oh, how are they doing it? I feel like you think about it, you experience music sometimes very analytically. Yeah. And I experience it only viscerally. I have to think so hard to analyze.

INTERVIEWER:

I think that's like making find, finding a way to make the music that moves you. And I think a lot of people like find what they're good at and they're like, okay, I can make a living doing this and, and I get some degree of pleasure from doing this, so this is what I'm going to do. But when I am alone and drunk and emotional and I need like a release that is not necessarily the music that I use as, like, that's something that when I was teaching, I taught like rich high schoolers for a long time and I was like, you're going into music. Right. I mean, some of them do. I have like a really beautiful group of like lady rock and roll band leaders that I'm very proud for most of them. Oh, coffee delivery. Sorry, one moment. Ooh,

SIAN:

Ooh. Magic, magic coffee delivery.

INTERVIEWER:

That's beautiful. Thank you so much.

SIAN:

Oliver Sandwiches. Like, here's your sandwich. Oh, oh yeah, I want some coffee too.

INTERVIEWER:

I was like, I just want you to have like music for your shitty days and when you get broken up with and when you get a new job. Right. And, and so we would work on like finding those songs. And I know so many musicians that have kinda these like classical paths to like deny themselves that pleasure. And then, or it was like this dark secret, the music that like their heart wanted to make, but they're like, I have too many degrees to make that

SIAN:

I, I feel like I didn't have a way in. I mean, honestly for me, like the first time that Charles had me in like 2019, come and play some recorder for like a pop track he was working on. And it was so much fun. And like I just, it's, it was, it felt so incredible to be a part of that. But also there's a certain thing of like Jim actually, because Jim has been talking for the last 12 years about analog synthesizers. But, and I, the whole time I didn't even know what that meant. But then in like the May of 2020, he bought his first synthesizer and then it really took over. And meanwhile Tracy in 2019 set up her harp with contact mics in the summer. Yeah. And so there's a little bit like, meanwhile Charles Elli had this band, if you look up Lake Whales, that like literally I listened to their music walking to and from subways every day for like six months. You know, so the chance to be like, all of these things are coming together. Can we make that happen? Tracy's such a good, Tracy and Elliot are so good at singing that repertoire. It's just like, oh guys. Yeah. I mean, for me, I think I've always, I I don't listen to music for fun because I find it too distracting most of the time

INTERVIEWER:

And can't do it. Yeah.

SIAN:

I, I love it, you know, but like, it's like I'll be like doing something else and then I'll just find myself in the middle of the room listening and I'm like, you were supposed to be cleaning or cooking or whatever. Just like, so, so, but you know, for me when I was like 16, I've always liked doing a lot of different things and like, you know, like I, so I think I always thought like I loved musical theater, but more, I just liked expressing things musically. And so sometimes for me, I feel like this weird black sheep where I'm like, I love medieval music, but I love musical theater and I love baroque music and I love, I love pop music. And frankly I just love any chance to like, try to express something through a length, through through a soundscape. And I've always been attracted to like the more different types of sounds and figuring out how they work well together, the better. And, and, and it's just so, it's always just been like, okay, like yes. Like what, what is a path in front of me I can continue to pursue to find this? And the medieval one happened to be happened to open up. Right. And, you know, for a while I thought maybe it was the new music path that was gonna open up, but instead the medieval path opened up and I was like, whoa, this place is cool. You know.

SIAN:

But yeah, I do think that like Freelance none is a place. Like I've always struggled with feeling pigeonholed and it's like, people just want to understand what you are, which is defining something helps you engage with it. Right. So it's understand that useful

INTERVIEWER:

Labelers. Yeah. Millennials als like hyper labelers.

SIAN:

Yeah. And so it's like useful. But, but I like the idea that in Freelance land it is, it is more of an open playground to, to just be like, what is, what's this bright shiny thing in front of me right now? And also when we talked about it, it's like we also, you know, there's a point in the pandemic trace we're like, do we wanna be able to sell like beard oil? Yeah. Like are we gonna, are we gonna start selling weird products? Are we going to like start taking people on forging trips? We're like, we want an umbrella that is capacious enough for anything we might wanna do commercially. Like capacious and capricious. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, we didn't in a way that, you know, alchemy, we have some merchandise, but like our board, it's, it's hilarious. We really have a split, like two of our board members are like, yeah, start absolutely. Start selling weird shit. And then two of them are like, actually that's beyond the scope of your mission as a nonprofit. You should be really careful. And it's, it's nice to have that balance actually. Yeah. But but yeah. Like we are limited as a nonprofit.

INTERVIEWER:

Can't the name of your organization, I mean

SIAN:

Yes, exactly. Whereas Freelance on L L C.

INTERVIEWER:

Yes.

SIAN:

That's whatever we wanted to whatever. Whatever seems like a good idea.

INTERVIEWER:

Yes. Oh, and I'm on Team Beard oil by the way. I mean I think that that's like broadly, I mean, and this is kind of goes into like my theory of like artist biographies and everything else. It's like having a holistic approach showing yourself is not just like this very like singularly faceted creature. Right. But instead as something that has a lot more diversity in its makeup and its motivation I think is more interesting to an audience. Like those are more, again, people you can bring to the table by having a common thread between you. And I don't need any more tote bags, but I do fucking need product.

SIAN:

Yeah. So we'll see. We, I think we realized that like, ultimately Tracy likes making small amounts of products for fun. Yeah. And that we were like, actually this is not the right time to commercialize this. Not yet. Not yet. But we're like, the time may come,

INTERVIEWER:

But maybe at a show.

SIAN:

Right. Totally.

INTERVIEWER:

Get a little lip balm in there.

SIAN:

Right. Exactly.

INTERVIEWER:

Lewis actually loves lip balm for product. It's one of his favorite product options with Balm for, you

SIAN:

Want us to collaborate with like a gin distillery? Yeah. Have one.

INTERVIEWER:

We have one. So one of Anya and I's Best Friends has a gin distillery. Right. What we've actually like, we, he's going to get you Jim. Let me find, find it. Hold on. Jen Mema. He's a genius. Here we go. We're just gonna put this in the chat.

SIAN:

Ooh.

INTERVIEWER:

Too funny right

SIAN:

There. Yes.

INTERVIEWER:

And the and and they're so cute. Mm

SIAN:

Wow. Pretty nice. I love it.

INTERVIEWER:

That's for Beam.

SIAN:

Wow.

INTERVIEWER:

They'll do anything on you. And I say

SIAN:

Amazing. Well

INTERVIEWER:

Anyway, gin Distillery. Just check that off. We

SIAN:

Have great, great. Done. Thank you. Thank God Locked

INTERVIEWER:

Figure out the lip balm. But for now we do have gin covered the lip

SIAN:

Balm. I, I feel, I feel confident that we could do that one in-house. Jen is a, you need like a lot of partnership. You need a partnership. Partnership. You need a partnership. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

We got, we got one. We got one. And

SIAN:

He's

INTERVIEWER:

Passionate about using what his job is. Like. What he does outside of Jim is basically like he's a rich person who decided that being rich was horrible and which like is easy to say if you're rich. Yeah. Right. But kind of lives like a monk now. But also helps startups and is really interested in using like, startup strategies with artistic organizations.

SIAN:

Wow. Hmm. Fascinating human.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, he is. He's cute.

SIAN:

So

INTERVIEWER:

Good story back to none. So it is like a pan. It's one of these pandemic babies. Like things have been, I mean I do really like, like to put my, my PR hat on for a second. I do really like the the spottiness

INTERVIEWER:

'cause it's something that we all like relate to. Like our pods were so interesting 'cause some of them were like, it just was who was close. Totally. Totally. And some were gonna move to be close. But like everyone has Who were those few people? I think it's really a lot of us. Like were, it's easy to forget that period of the pandemic. You like the hyper lockdown. Yeah. And I, I feel like people were, we're always kinda like reminding ourselves like remember that? Like remember when you couldn't go inside restaurants? Remember when you were afraid someone was gonna see that one of your friends was on your porch and we're gonna call the police. Right. And it's like there's a, I mean it's just sick but the, it's kind of romantic.

SIAN:

Totally. I mean, and for us, because once we finally got spiff who spent like the first two months of lockdown, like in Iowa on the farm. 'cause that's where he was from, like the show that he was doing when Covid started. But when he appeared it's like, that's when we first used the banjo in medieval music. Yeah. Was for fun. And like our first thing that we did was fifth is like we made these, we have this coloring book from the 1960s. My mom got me, that's like these beautiful medieval images that are Of course. So Tracy like scandal them men. And we created, I like painted watercolor. Like we created these watercolor paper dolls that we like set up. Like put and then we, we filmed against a backdrop. A backdrop we filmed against like our friends who we were wanting her plants. They have a room that's entirely dark blue. And we filmed there. So Tracy put like, basically we filmed the paper dolls are like the front, in the front of the screen. And then we put ourselves in a corner on the side. And then it was like a medieval scene scape Yeah. That Tracy put in there. So we were like in the mountains, but then we were setting up for each little vignette, like these paper dolls. We made ourselves very, it was very evil

INTERVIEWER:

House on the Prairie is what this is totally

SIAN:

Medieval house on the prairie. And like we, you know, spiff, we, we just put it together with like iMovie. Yeah, yeah. It was so d i y. Yeah. Just the most d y It was actually hilarious because we didn't really understand what the imagery for the video game was gonna look like until the trailer came out. When we'd been working on it. 'cause we didn't, the animation was behind Right work. It was happening behind the musical creation. But when it happened we were like, oh my God, we totally get it. This is what we did with our paper dolls. Yeah. Because the iconography was so similar and it was two D Illumination, like two D animation. We were like, yeah, we thought this was a good idea too. Yeah. We're like, but we didn't have a budget of Microsoft.

INTERVIEWER:

That's amazing. So I mean, can we talk, let's talk about the video game trajectory for a minute. And when came in to how did that, how did that happen?

SIAN:

We have a board member who has been asking me for several years. She's like, you play the Hery Gertie, right. I have a friend who's really obsessed with the Hery Gertie and it might be useful. And I was like, yeah, I play the pretty gritty. But anyway, this friend was Josh Sawyer, who's the director of Obsidian and or he's the director, A director who works for Obsidian. Right. And he got, he finally got in touch with Alchemy and was like, Hey, I'm doing, like I might do this video game that might involve music from like the early modern and late medieval period. Could you guys like maybe be involved in creating some music for the demo? And we were like, yeah, sure. That sounds great. And as we looked, found out when we looked back, actually we got kind of a lot of information at the beginning.

SIAN:

Didn't break. Didn't break. We got a lot of information at the beginning. But because all of us, and one reason why, I mean Carrie really recommended us. Basically she had, they went to to school together and this director like was a history major. And apparently it's like he's always wanted to make a historically informed video game. It's his passion project. And when Obsidian got bought by Microsoft, they had enough money. Microsoft was like, and he's, he's a really an acclaim director that people are obsessed with him. They're like, yeah man, we'll give you some money. Go do your passion project. And he started, it was a team, we didn't know this at the time of only two people in the beginning. And so we did not know what we were doing. We definitely made a demo. We recorded it live like in the music room of Fordham University before giving a totally different concert that day.

SIAN:

We did that in January, 2020. And then Covid happened. We, you know, they were like, we'll be in touch. We just didn't hear from them. But in the meantime, we were like, okay, let's, we should buy microphones and interfaces for everybody. We seem we don't need to be able to make this music happen. We need to make this happen. And we had never only Nico, so Nicolo had been involved in making music for Civil the Civilization series and was really familiar with multi-tracking. None of the rest of us had ever done that. And so we got some instructions and we were doing these things like, you know, in our bedrooms, Nikola was doing all the editing. This was before we realized it was in the middle of act one, that we were like, we basically submitted these drafts we worked on so hard. And half of them were like, great.

SIAN:

And half of them were like, oh, we need something totally different. And we're like, fuck, we did not understand the job that we're doing. We thought we were just gonna be like, here you go. Here's this cake we made. You're welcome. What's next? Also, we really had the sense that even through Act one that what we were making was like prototypes. And that at some point when the pandemic allowed, we'd all go into a studio and record it together. We did not understand we were making the products at that point. So at that point we still didn't understand we were making products, but it was like, oh shit. Actually this was when we'd already started. Basically Charles made the first videos for us in 2018 and did a great job and also kind of sell, saved us like our first videos of any kind that we made around 2016.

SIAN:

And we did not understand how special the process was so easy. The product was so good and it was so affordable. And we thought that that was like the norm. And we basically hired this other person to make these videos and didn't have time to process them. And we're finally doing it and we're like, had to call Charles and be like, can you watch this? Like it seems like this is terrible audio and video all terrible. Like is this salvageable? And he was basically like, no, there, this is not salvageable. So we, so we we're slowly understanding how special Charles was and also had a pattern of being like, we're in trouble. We gotta call Charles. He can help us. Like, so basically this was, we just, throughout the pandemic, this was the first of like the 25 times that we were like, Charles, we kind of got in and over our head, can you help us?

SIAN:

Can you help us? It's an emergency. We need your video game help. So Charles, at that point we started then sending our stems to Charles. To Charles who was editing and putting them together, some of us, because I was always terrible at recording my stuff. We also made the dumb decision. We chose to use a program that didn't work on my computer 'cause it was Mac only. I'm the only person who doesn't have a Mac. And so Tracy and I were doing everything together in her bedroom, which has made your life much worse too. Yeah. So, but, but basically for me, even if I, the time we got to act two, it's like I had Charles help me. We actually, we recorded a lot of act two in A Ha Ha Hutt in Alo, which is where we are right now. But, but yeah. And, and also excitingly in bet and so basically it kind of happened one act a year and it always happened on this like glacial timeline that we didn't understand what was happening.

SIAN:

By the time we got to act two, we understood that we were making the product right. But one thing that really helped us is that like Charles built his own studio during this time period. So by the time we got to the second half of Act two, we were multi-tracking, but in a studio, in a place with a professional. And by the time we got to Act three, actually we were, we figured out how to do it right. We were multi-tracking everything in Charles's studio and then Larry, but we were all together in real time take so that we could talk about it and make quick edits and like respond to what was happening. 'cause it was such a logistical mindfuck to be like, well, Nicolo can is only free this week to do it. So after they record this, then, then we'll do it. You know? So, so yeah, if we did it over a long time, we gradually got better at everything and also gradually enjoyed it more and more, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

INTERVIEWER:

It's interesting because I mean, so many people during also during the pandemic, like had to become acquainted with recording technology in a way that they hadn't before. And I'm like looking at all of like, like, what the fuck is this? Like my after dark?

SIAN:

Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

The setup is ridiculous. And, and everyone like in our universe has these like, had to gain a degree of expertise. But I also wonder, and I was kind of forced by this video game project that you had to become competent and comfortable with recording technology in a different way. But it also seems to me like that's part of Freelance nun's story as well. Like, you're seeing what Charles can do for you. You're seeing, you're getting excited and engaging with technology in more comfortable ways. It's like a, a little bit of a perfect storm moment. Yeah. Like you're potting with people with these skill sets. You have this job that's like interesting and in the medieval world, but you have to record it and you have to engage with technology and you're shacking up with people that are starting to buy fun equipment.

SIAN:

Right? Totally. Yeah. And even though I felt like we didn't really have, we, Tracy was really busy, the whole pandemic because she was writing does a lot of grant writing that she's trying not to do anymore. But at the time you were like, I should take this. I need to take this money, money, this money. Right. And there were so many organizations that were just floundering, floundering, floundering.

INTERVIEWER:

I mean, and you're looking, it's so funny 'cause it's like I'm looking at your, your concert history and it's like, okay, there's this pause, did a little bit of online stuff, and then you hit your 20 20, 20 21 season and you've doubled your gigs.

SIAN:

Yeah,

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah. Definitely. So tell, talk to me about your 2021 season. Like, what is it? Because you guys were like, okay, we're just gonna be like, we're in charge. We know we're in charge now we're getting a lot of Yes.

SIAN:

We, it was a combination. We, like, we applied for funding and then we're like, well, we applied for this funding, we got this funding. We need to make some things happen. But we didn't even know that we've gotten it for much longer. Actually. I think, well, I, well, but we had applied for it. We, it's true. We wanted to keep, we, we like, we wanna keep moving forward, you know, like we have applied for these things. We have an expectation, we'd set up expectations for ourselves that we were gonna keep making stuff happen. And I think it kind of quickly became obvious that, well, just like no one was, we, we were in a unique position to make things happen because there were a few enough of us and people were willing to like jump through 80 hoops that we set up for ourselves. Right.

SIAN:

But I would say honestly, the reason we started doing more is that we publicly recognize that Tracy is in charge and when Tracy's in charge of shit, she really level 11 of 10. That's, that's just like, that's, that's, you know, and, and I think that we also, but also we too, I mean the two of us together, but we together were like, you were like, Hey, this is, this is this other level. I think we should be going to this other level. And I was like, okay. Yeah. And I was pretty sick. I was doing less other work. I was working for lawyers, which was frustrating, but not very many hours. And so it's like we did have the space to kind of generate that. Yeah. But I remember like, you know, Tracy would be like, we should attend this development webinar about fundraising during Covid. I mean, just like, if you think about where we've come in the last three years, like, I certainly have like learned how to be an administrator. You're so good at it. But it was because Tracy was like, let's get some tools. Let's talk about exhaustively Yeah. About everything. It's true. And like, try to figure this out together. Yeah. And so we kind of did that. We had the space to, I would say also to do that during, during the pandemic, not that, go

INTERVIEWER:

Ahead. A space for incubation. Like Yes, it

SIAN:

Was,

INTERVIEWER:

Or if you were set up, I mean, I feel so horribly for like the 21 year old artists of the world during the pandemic, but like, if you have some degree of stability, you can figure out how to pivot. You can survive during this time the luxury of rest and space. And like, I can't just keep doing, I can't just keep doing exactly what I've been doing. I like literally there's no way to do that right now.

SIAN:

You know, it's funny, that was not, that's, that's kind of, that was not my experience and I don't think it was SIAN:'s either. In so far as I, I was kind of processing, like my biggest fear has always been maybe I won't get to do the art that I wanna do. And I think during Covid, like a lot of people, you know, took a step back and like, like nested or kind of recharged and I like burnt myself out entirely. What

INTERVIEWER:

Were you doing that burnt? Yeah. What, how did you spend, how to

SIAN:

Well, it was a combination of like the, like trying to figure out how to not only run Alchemy, but also like, you know, two other nonprofits who were just like really struggling during, during the pandemic. But I was also teaching classes that several that like people got on sabbatical for. So I was like, teaching a class for, this is kind of not related to Alchemy, so I don't wanna spend too much time on it, but like a music for dancers class of wonderful dancers who were all in the Alvin Ailey dance program taking music through Fordham. And they were all women of color except for one student. And the book was incredibly like, just racist, institutionally racist. Racist in so many ways. And it was like, and they were supposed to, some of them had no music reading skills and some of em had had some, and they were all supposed to be able to like understand the seventh chords and, and like harmonic progressions in the semester.

SIAN:

And it, so it was like, that class was just like, it, it was so hard to learn. It was just like trying to teach online. And she was also doing it remotely with like combining these five different remote technologies because you can only Tracy at level 11, right. Where it's like my teaching online, well I had to do an easier thing. I don't think I would've said yes to that class. Yeah. But also I'm like, no, I, my setup is what it is and I have these shitty tools and we're just gonna work with them. So it's like, that was kinda like the, the outside stuff, like my life got much harder in terms of the logistics, but in terms of alchemy, I was like, we, like doing projects was so hard, but I was also like, we need to figure out how to, like, no one is giving us work except for ourselves and let's, let's do the things we wanna do.

SIAN:

So like the inner sensory programs we did were so cool and so well received, but I was getting like four hours of sleep for like weeks on end and we were like, you know, making all these things by hand, you know, having like 16 hour days. Right. And I mean, after you had designed the stuff. Right. Right. So it was just like, so that it was like, I would say like a very fruitful period in terms of like exploration and implementation and we had the space to try out new things. That's the thing is that I, I think that that's important is like, we didn't have space to rest because we filled up all the space that we gained by not traveling and not doing choral ran of coral gigs by like giving ourselves hard administrative projects. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

Well, and I think what you said is sort of the, this is like the other tie in that like lots people experienced is like no one else is, the only way that art can get made is if I do it right, like the institutional failures. Right,

SIAN:

Right. And

INTERVIEWER:

Like organizations did what they can and could certainly Yeah. But it was like the only way, like most were not limber enough to do what you needed to do.

SIAN:

Right. And we were like right in the sweet spot of like, if we, we can do this. Yes. We were big enough that we had some resources and small enough that we didn't have such weight, you know, but it was, but it was a big lift. But also it's like now we're in this hugely exciting position where we can be like, where I, I do, I feel like, like the investment that we made, I do feel like, like now we're seeing like what we can do with that. So it's terribly exciting. And, and you know,

INTERVIEWER:

I mean the most interesting organizations I feel like flourished be or are flourishing or on like a really interesting path because of the pandemic and because people were just like, you know what? Y'all don't give a shit about me. You're not paying me. I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want right now.

SIAN:

Yeah. It's

INTERVIEWER:

Gonna be better than what your board of white men want me to do.

SIAN:

Yeah. And for us, I think we just, you know, our board's always been very hands off. So it was just like, they were like, okay guys, sounds good. Do just like go, go do it. And that was, but yeah, definitely. And we also benefited, we benefited financially from a pandemic as well. Yeah. Because New York State, once they finally like, got it together, there was just like an easy fountain of money that opened up. Yeah. And so in a combination with the money we were getting from the video game, it made our budget big enough that we could get even more money. Yeah. And I would say we're still, it's, we we're in these two year awards right now, the next sec next year was the second year. And we're both very curious to see what happens in fiscal year 25. Because I feel like these gifts were still benefiting from New York being like, we gotta use all this covid money or Congress is gonna CLO back. Right. And now Congress has clotted back, so it's like happen. So who knows what, what will happen in the future. But right now we're, we're living the dream we wanna have for this next fiscal year 24. Yeah. Well

INTERVIEWER:

And your output has been extremely fruitful during this time. Yeah. Like

SIAN:

Totally,

INTERVIEWER:

You've essentially formed another organization Right.

SIAN:

And

INTERVIEWER:

Have made a tremendous amount of music, some of which is completely unique.

SIAN:

Yeah. And now we're in this place where we're like, we're like, you know, we can find people like Beth Beacham to be like, okay, let's, let's like re like I feel like we just like climbed this really steep mountain and now we're on this like beautiful plateau and we're like, it's awesome up here. We need more than an outhouse. You know, like, like, let's, let's create, or we need a guide who can, who has been up to the next mountain higher. Yeah. But also we need like a nice base camp here. We do. Yeah. Yeah. I I

INTERVIEWER:

Like that metaphor. You're at a really solid base camp with a decent altitude. Yeah.

SIAN:

Yeah. And we need to like, kinda like stabilize that and then also like say, like, gotta get, when do we get up there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You

INTERVIEWER:

Gotta figure out what you're gonna climb next. In terms, let's see, I'm like, what is, can you just kind of talk me through like what is ahead in terms of engagements? Is there anything sort of new and like when you're looking ahead to this like next season, does it feel in line with previous seasons? Like how do you feel about like the number of concerts? How do you feel about alchemy versus Freelance non kind of breakdown of engagements?

SIAN:

I think I feel really positive this is finally, but like I know, I know I just, Tracy and I have been since essentially we got this money because we, because we discovered in November that we were getting $120,000 over the next two years. Tracy's first response was to be like, I'm worried that we do are not big enough to spend this much money. Like this is a problem we need, I've basically been making budgets like every week, different budgets for like the last six months. And finally we're like, yes we can. It's like over the course of this year that we're just ending and next year we will spend $280,000 and on things that we're really excited about. So like the alchemy break, the alchemy breakdown. I feel like it's, I feel like both Freelance men and Alchemy are starting to crystallize in terms, in terms of what they are.

SIAN:

The alchemy breakdown. We're commissioning 10 female non-binary composers to set music to these female troubadour texts and are super excited about it. And they're gonna use obviously the Alchemy instruments and these texts. And we're also working with Amanda on that project at least. I hope so. Yeah. She is like, I saw her, I saw her last show, I saw Forward Music three in New York and we talked about it, but she has not responded to any of my emails. But I'm like, I'm just gonna proceed as if this is happening with Amanda. But honestly, we're like, if Amanda disappeared, we've got six, six other competent musicians ready to make this happen.

INTERVIEWER:

Funny. He, so she actually, I have to respond to her. She texted me yesterday and was like, can we hop on a call? I just was, I had a great conversation with David who was talking about the photo shoot.

SIAN:

Great

INTERVIEWER:

Things by you.

SIAN:

Great. We should reach out. We should reach out to Amanda Yeah. Separately, like as a friend because it's just, I mean this, this collaboration we've been talking about, we met Amanda at Aack in 2016 and like kind of became like friends for life. Yeah. And we were just been looking for like the right thing to collaborate with her. And obviously this project is totally in line with her personal mission and we just would love to make music with her. Yeah. So we're really looking forward to that as like a big new show. And I'm having lots of meetings with composers who are all so awesome and excited and, and then like our other projects are kind of like, this is this weird year of like actually big culmination projects where like, we're doing a live show of the intimate music, the first live show. We're gonna do the Fine Companion album release, we're gonna do the album release from Love To My Liking, which started as that original like January, 2014, the scrappy, scrappy hot Mess.

SIAN:

And it's became something totally, totally different. You know, we've done it, we've done that show that more than any other show. And every time we do it, we expand it and it gets different and better. And we're also details have not like come together, but it's like, yes, we're gonna be on, 'cause our our field kind of the, the biggest organizations are like the Boston Early Music Festival and the Berkeley Early Music Festival. And next year we're gonna perform on like the main series of Berkeley in a collaboration with sh Clear. So it's like, you know, kind exciting, great stuff. Yeah. We're, and we're talking about like, we finally made contact with the cloisters, which we've been trying to do for years. And basically, I, I suspect it hasn't been scheduled, but I think we'll probably do some sort of show as a part of like an educational project with the cloisters next year. And then we found this great like bar in our neighborhood where we, we will do another concert there. You know, it's like everything is feeling like these are things we really wanna do. Right. And we're able to do them. And the, you know, and the Freelance Not a World, we have this album release

SIAN:

Our, our Weird, our weird Folk album. Our folk folk displaced from space and time album Right. That we're so excited about. And then the, the, the Fine Companion collaboration, which it feels really great. And then I think that Right. We're gonna record We, so we're our long term like working on this double album of like album Nun, the Nunes of Nun projects, like text Setting Text by Hildegard and this other 12th century German Nun. And we're gonna start recording that in January and we're holding dates for that. And so it's like we're seeing Yeah. Things are starting to like, come into focus a little bit for both. For both in a way that, like last year, Tracy, when we were at Aval Lock, the, the founder of Aval Lock, who for years had just utterly ignored us and we thought maybe disapproved of us, like was totally like saw us with New Eyes last summer Yeah. And was basically like, wanted us to ask him for money. And we were like, we don't even know what that would look like. We are just not in a position to do more or anything more than what we're doing with Alchemy. That's how we felt last summer. But this year we're ready to ask him for money to help with this Freelance rerecording that we wanna do in January. And we're also like, yeah, we, we've we're planning these activities. We have space and time for them.

INTERVIEWER:

You

SIAN:

Guys,

INTERVIEWER:

I mean, and this is kind of just more personal kind of between the two of you, but do you feel like alchemy and Freelance, none for you guys is gonna, is basically gonna turn into a full-time? Like this is what you do.

SIAN:

Yeah, that's the dream. That's the dream. And I would say there's always like, like I, I like, I like doing other music sometimes too. You know, like sometimes it's nice just to get, be invited to like just fulfill a, a role, you know? But, but for the most part, yeah, I think our dream would be when we're not doing Alchemy stuff, we're doing Freelance Nun stuff. Yeah. I mean, for me, I have this secret side goal of becoming a core member of P four O. So The Secret, but I, and I am playing with in four shows with them next year. So I'm like, things are, but in my world, honestly, if all my, if all my music was like alchemy, Freelance fun p fro and like macari, like our friends, like Scottish early music band of early instruments, I would be totally happy. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

It's your perfect life. I mean, that's always what I'm wondering is like, what is your perfect life? What's the perfect recipe for you to be a human? And it seems like you guys are getting super close.

SIAN:

We are getting closer. We're getting closer. And I think I'd wanna keep teaching the children too. I really love that. That's awesome. I'm kind of on the, I mean like I teach, but I, Tracy, if you're ever ready to give up the fall Collegium Well right now I need the money, so I know, I mean, I'm not gonna steal it from you. Yeah. But just I do really love that. Yeah. I wouldn't wanna be a full-time teacher, but like teaching like one class this semester is, I find really, like I, I'm able to use it to like, as an excuse to read things that I wanna be reading, but find it hard to prioritize. So,

INTERVIEWER:

And being with the children inspires new things always.

SIAN:

Totally. I love them. They're so cute.

INTERVIEWER:

So here's kind of my plan. I mean, first of all, we have this meeting with Louis tomorrow,

SIAN:

Right.

INTERVIEWER:

And I don't feel like we need to go in with like a super intense plan or anything. I think we just need to kind of talk through the, how are we going to split up the organizations, make sure that they're labeled correctly, kind of talk through what we're thinking in terms of the visual branding. Right. I like actually have not spoken or seen Lewis since our divorce.

SIAN:

Wow. Very

INTERVIEWER:

Exciting. Was

SIAN:

It, was it a, was it a, a peaceful divorce or a

INTERVIEWER:

He told me I was responsible for, what is it, toxic masculinity?

SIAN:

You're,

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah. Here's the, here's the really quick story is that he asked me to come up with a, what is it called? Like a like sort of outfit guidelines for the new iteration of sobriety five. And just like some visual cues, like how to keep it kind of like rock and roll and sexy. And I had some of the women like the, some of the, it was like very Pinteresty, right? And like some of the examples had women in dresses or skirts and they were like, you know, like leather and cool and stuff. And he was like, I don't want any women in anything of pants. I was like, I don't feel really comfortable with a man telling I, I don't see a difference between a man telling me that I have to wear pants than a man telling me that I can't wear pants

SIAN:

Valid.

INTERVIEWER:

Like that makes me really uncomfortable. And he had a hissy fit and hung up on me. And then I called him back and was like, and he wouldn't pick up the phone. And I texted him, I was like, this is a really inappropriate overreaction. Like what? Like think about what we've all been through as women and you're having and being real or emotional. And he was like, you calling me over emotional is like why toxic masculinity exists in the world.

SIAN:

Aw. You're like, you're like, I can call a tantrum over emotional, you know,

INTERVIEWER:

It was a literal tantrum and I was like, you know what, I've worked with you for like six years and I charge you half of what I charge everyone else and you call me like every five minutes and I think we're done.

SIAN:

I think we're done here.

INTERVIEWER:

And, and then he was very sad.

SIAN:

Yeah. Well he definitely, I mean, for what it's worth, he obviously like holds you in very high esteem. Like when we got in touch with you, he was supposed to like

INTERVIEWER:

Him as well. Yeah. Like we're, we've texted, you know, we're,

SIAN:

Yeah. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

But that's, I went down skirts,

SIAN:

We, when we did tell him you'd be on this project, his first respond was moving Beth to B, c, C because actually I don't think she's right. And then we're like, no, we actually, we want her, we need, we're working with her. Wanna make sure like oh right. Like he had like an emoji emoji emoji party emoji party emoji. And I was like, you're definitely overcompensating right now. It's adorable. Don't stop. You know, like Yeah. Because otherwise

INTERVIEWER:

He's gonna be afraid. So just like,

SIAN:

But yeah, from us, like I'm just so happy because we know the least about this process and so if we, when we're in the position of like back channeling between everybody, we are the like the least qualified people to back channel. We just don't know what we know. We're like, we don't know what's going on. Yeah. We can't give you good answers to your questions Louis. Like Yeah. So I'm really glad,

INTERVIEWER:

Like that's kind of what I'm seeing my job as tomorrow I'm gonna advocate, I'm gonna translate and I'm gonna make sure that like the right questions are being asked to Lewis in a way that he's going to give you the answers that are going to make sense. But in my mind it's like we're thinking DSPs, we're thinking how are we going to split up the two organizations in a way that people are gonna get credited. We're gonna like ask his advice on that because that's kind of a thing. Like he does have really good insight on the best way to basically make everyone appear on the most number of platforms and then talk through visual Yeah. Visual branding. But just translate and advocate will be the name of the game for me

SIAN:

Tomorrow. Sweet.

INTERVIEWER:

And you

SIAN:

So much

INTERVIEWER:

Like in the call, like just fucking text me. Like I'll have it up. We can, we can have a back line if I need to. Like

SIAN:

Great. That's, that's awesome.

INTERVIEWER:

So my plan now is I have this recording, I'm going to start, I'm gonna start playing around with Freelance None. Okay. I think what makes sense at this point, I'll start building out some organizational information. Like as I, as I go through that, that process I have a, you know, enough materials from Anya that I can start just kind of like pasting things in and start to see visually how things are gonna come together. And my thought is with Freelance, none we can start with something not like bare bones but like, like set up an infrastructure for sort of infinite growth. But it doesn't have to be everything all at once, you know? Right. My thought with Freelance Nun is I kind of want that to be birthed as soon as possible. Thinking about the broader like PR timeline so that we start to get some brand recognition and it can be a little mysterious in the beginning and I, when the album comes out is when it's probably gonna really explode. But anyway, that's kind of like my general thought is I'm gonna start focus on Freelance none. I'm probably gonna start with the language. Let me actually look at what you sent me in terms of key dates.

SIAN:

We have some language because we have had to apply it to Alo as as as Freelance fund. We have some just general Freelance non language I can send you too.

INTERVIEWER:

Amazing. That would be amazing. And I think the combination of like seeing what's ahead, like seeing kind of how we're going to sort of reverse engineer the branding and seeing the gigs that you have kind of coming up, giving boilerplate languages you've used already. Let me bring some personality into it from our, from our call today and we'll come up with something that's that's sweet and interesting and true hopefully and we'll and we'll go from there.

SIAN:

Sounds awesome.

INTERVIEWER:

Sure. Let's just kind of touch in with each other. We can just like text after the call tomorrow. Great. Just to see if we need to kind of organize any more substantial next steps in regards to the album or if there's any more interference that you want me to run on the album front. Yeah.

SIAN:

Plan. Awesome. Quick follow up on the, so did you see the person they're working with for the album cover

INTERVIEWER:

I saw and haven't gone through their portfolio? Lemme look. It,

SIAN:

They certainly looked, they certainly have competent clients.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah. Oh, like the New York Philharmonic. That's that's fine.

SIAN:

Right.

INTERVIEWER:

Although, I mean it's fine. It's a little, lemme see if I can find one that's interesting. Okay. It certainly is quite palatable. It's a little corporate.

SIAN:

Yep.

INTERVIEWER:

But not all of 'em. I think it's one where you would need to really give permission for some wildness.

SIAN:

Yep. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

And I mean I found that often people who like are working at this really high level are desperate for wildness.

SIAN:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

They would love to make art.

SIAN:

Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

And giving that permission is probably gonna be a key part of that communication.

SIAN:

So I think Tamara, one of the things we should talk about is yeah, how's this design going to work? Can we talk to the, like he just said, you know, I think just the designer themselves, but you know, can we talk with the person who's going to be

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah. I mean I can say how it typically with the designers they've used in the past is there has been like a Zoom call.

SIAN:

Okay.

INTERVIEWER:

And I, I mean we need to check in and see if this is something that they're willing to do. Obviously it's a new person,

SIAN:

But it

INTERVIEWER:

Talk through sort of the goals for the visual representation. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to share with the designer just like what the branding images are that we're going to be working on the project necessarily. Like to use them on like the cover of an album, but so that they can get a sense of what the like energy of the organization is and kind of, I think that's something that also would give permission to be like, okay, here's Tracy humping a harp.

SIAN:

Right. Like, you, you might wanna, whatever we do should match the kind of energy and intensity of that. I mean,

INTERVIEWER:

And that's the goal is that Yeah. The of both Alchemy and Freelance Nun supports this album and they can't be in conflict. If it was too rigid of a design, then it would feel like

SIAN:

Alien.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like a foreign invader.

SIAN:

Yeah.

INTERVIEWER:

Want it to feel like at least like a, a nice little friend. So Yeah. Yeah. I I, I mean I'm sure it's, it's gonna be fine, but I would also love to be on that call and I think I can, if that call was not a part of the original plan, I think that I can make it a part of the plan at the, and because I think the other thing that's going to be important is how do we sort of put both band names

SIAN:

Yeah. On the cover

INTERVIEWER:

That maybe, I mean, I'm sure that they might have other ideas that sort of, the things that we've just kind of run over, you know, just kind of the, the animal moment from Alchemy, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, but, and we can run these things by Louis too. Yeah. But, great. So do we have a Zoom link for tomorrow?

SIAN:

Hmm. Maybe not, not yet.

INTERVIEWER:

Do you wanna create one and send it out?

SIAN:

Yeah, I will.

INTERVIEWER:

Best and remind Louis of all the things. Fabulous. Cool. Well I'm excited again, if anything goofy happens tomorrow, but otherwise I'll be there bright and early. And I, Frankie anything

SIAN:

One more thing. We also, 'cause we were also just hired this publicity consultant right from New York and I, we had a great conversation. We're kind of in a like initial conversation stage with her, but she would love to have a call with you so that you guys can get aligned in terms of what you're thinking and, and planning

INTERVIEWER:

Would be really great. Yeah. I mean, do you want to do like a, a four-way call or do you want me to just meet with her?

SIAN:

Either way, depending on what's possible. I'll email both of you and put you in touch. And obviously we'll be on that too. And then we can talk about what makes sense. And we're, we're super excited. She's like worked as a publicist in New York for 20 years and seems to just like Yeah. Have a good idea of similarly to when we met with you and you were like, oh, this is what you're doing and this is what you need. It was a similar moment where I was like, oh yeah, this is, you're right. We do need that. Thank you.

INTERVIEWER:

Yeah, we'd love yeah, just start the email conversation. We'll find a time in the next week, week and a half maybe. Great. Fabulous. Awesome. Yay. Well, super excited. I'll let you know if I have questions. I'm sure I will. And I'll see you in the morning. Morning. Bye. Thanks.